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066/660 Big Bore - can it be great?

Brewz

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Hi folks.

I know that the general consensus is that fitting a 56mm big bore kit to an 066/660 is generally a waste of time as you get little gain from it.

My brain asks why!

Now we all know that the smaller case volume in an early short cased 1122 064/066 can make super power with an 066/660 jug fitted, JMS and Deets (and I am sure others too) have proved this, so why wont the later 066/660 case do the same when a jug just under 100 cc's is bolted on?

I recall JMS saying he has a big bore running a 395 piston (i think) and it was a good runner.
I have noticed the 394 piston is the same size and compression height, but .040 longer.

Surely these things can be cut and ported to make serious power.

While we are on the subject, what would people say is the best big bore jug?

Hook in folks, I know the knowledge on this site can put an end to the 66 big bore back seat riding!
 

Definitive Dave

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Here is the long and short of the issue, IMHO.

Disclosure:
I sell both OEM and several brands of aftermarket cylinders including Big Bore kits.
I make more profit on an aftermarket kit than on an OEM kit, even though the OEM has a price tag much higher in most cases.
I have worked with / provide cylinders to several dozen different builders and try like hell to pay attention to all of their feedback.

Most aftermarket cylinders are an attempt to "clone" an OEM cylinder.
Cost is also a major concern for the aftermarket makers, if they spend as much as the OEM to make a perfect cylinder they have to charge as much as OEM and there is no benefit.
In making the clone the aftermarket gets as close as they can and then calls it good enough.
As any of the builders here can tell you a change of 1 degree or a thousandth of an inch in certain areas of the cylinder creates changes in performance.
There are also a ton of variations in OEM cylinders so if the one they use as a sample isn't the best and then they do a decent job in cloning they may end up with a cylinder that visually looks fine and has good fitment to the crankcase and crank but produces less power due to inefficiencies and inaccuracies in the copying.
So when this cylinder goes to market the average homeowner dude is reasonably happy that his recently dead saw now makes 89% of the power it formerly made, but that isn't enough for the pros and pro builders/mechanics.
Since "there is no replacement for displacement", the aftermarket companies then overbore the same castings that produce a mediocre standard size cylinder to produce the same cylinder with the same port timing and measurement errors, just a little bigger.
The company has no additional molding or R&D to do and now has two offerings for the marketplace including the "Big Bore" which of course sounds impressive. this helps them offset the considerable cost of making a new casting.

Most builders/porters/modders who build saws for a living or for pay are unwilling to chance working with a subpar cylinder when the cost difference isn't really that great in relation to the overall cost of a pro saw and porting work.
Plating is an issue for builders including overplating, uneven plating, plating flash in ports and intake/exhaust. Overall molding and finishing may also leave a lot more for the builder to do himself and the customer doesn't see or pay for the extra work.
Since quality control and overall uniformity is better on the OEM cylinder and it has years of research and science behind it most guys feel more comfortable starting the journey to a ported saw from a known origin.

An aftermarket big bore cylinder can be made to run like a beast, but builders are less likely to undertake this as it isn't a repeatable process. If Builder Bob ports an MS660 OEM and takes notes his next OEM 660 build goes faster and maybe better. With an aftermarket he is starting from scratch each time and can't just use the same numbers and process every time a saw arrives with a check.

Big Bore cylinders sell well, even when I tell a potential customer they are better off with OEM or a strong AM with rigid QC like Meteor, more than half the time they buy the cheaper big bore kit.

If you go with any aftermarket kit make sure you use Caber or OEM rings in the right size for your piston, cheap rings kill power, PERIOD.

A big bore kit does reportedly do better than even an OEM cylinder in a big bar, big wood, stumping situation and reportedly in some milling use. A couple of builders say they like the big bore for those uses in pro tree service / milling applications with strong oil mix as the displacement and additional size of the piston give more uniform power and cooling.
Locally the 660BB I built for a tree service that uses it for smaller stumping got a "meh, about the same as the oem 660" reaction.
Dave

also worth noting (as shown by weimedogs excellent vids) that some castings aren't off by merely thousandths of an inch but by more than a 1/4 inch and are freeporting calamities :)

If a builder took the time to correct all the problems and built a strong saw, most customers wouldn't want to pay the same price for that saw as all OEM. So your customer base turns into bargain shoppers, who statistically are a bigger pain in the butt to deal with.
Definitely lose/lose for the builder I would think.
 
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jmssaws

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The meteor cylinders I've used have been excellent but there standard bore.
There the only am cylinder I'll port.


A 395 piston is the best choice because of ring location but it's not a easy swap and the piston is to heavy.
 

jmssaws

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Here is the long and short of the issue, IMHO.

Disclosure:
I sell both OEM and several brands of aftermarket cylinders including Big Bore kits.
I make more profit on an aftermarket kit than on an OEM kit, even though the OEM has a price tag much higher in most cases.
I have worked with / provide cylinders to several dozen different builders and try like hell to pay attention to all of their feedback.

Most aftermarket cylinders are an attempt to "clone" an OEM cylinder.
Cost is also a major concern for the aftermarket makers, if they spend as much as the OEM to make a perfect cylinder they have to charge as much as OEM and there is no benefit.
In making the clone the aftermarket gets as close as they can and then calls it good enough.
As any of the builders here can tell you a change of 1 degree or a thousandth of an inch in certain areas of the cylinder creates changes in performance.
There are also a ton of variations in OEM cylinders so if the one they use as a sample isn't the best and then they do a decent job in cloning they may end up with a cylinder that visually looks fine and has good fitment to the crankcase and crank but produces less power due to inefficiencies and inaccuracies in the copying.
So when this cylinder goes to market the average homeowner dude is reasonably happy that his recently dead saw now makes 89% of the power it formerly made, but that isn't enough for the pros and pro builders/mechanics.
Since "there is no replacement for displacement", the aftermarket companies then overbore the same castings that produce a mediocre standard size cylinder to produce the same cylinder with the same port timing and measurement errors, just a little bigger.
The company has no additional molding or R&D to do and now has two offerings for the marketplace including the "Big Bore" which of course sounds impressive. this helps them offset the considerable cost of making a new casting.

Most builders/porters/modders who build saws for a living or for pay are unwilling to chance working with a subpar cylinder when the cost difference isn't really that great in relation to the overall cost of a pro saw and porting work.
Plating is an issue for builders including overplating, uneven plating, plating flash in ports and intake/exhaust. Overall molding and finishing may also leave a lot more for the builder to do himself and the customer doesn't see or pay for the extra work.
Since quality control and overall uniformity is better on the OEM cylinder and it has years of research and science behind it most guys feel more comfortable starting the journey to a ported saw from a known origin.

An aftermarket big bore cylinder can be made to run like a beast, but builders are less likely to undertake this as it isn't a repeatable process. If Builder Bob ports an MS660 OEM and takes notes his next OEM 660 build goes faster and maybe better. With an aftermarket he is starting from scratch each time and can't just use the same numbers and process every time a saw arrives with a check.

Big Bore cylinders sell well, even when I tell a potential customer they are better off with OEM or a strong AM with rigid QC like Meteor, more than half the time they buy the cheaper big bore kit.

If you go with any aftermarket kit make sure you use Caber or OEM rings in the right size for your piston, cheap rings kill power, PERIOD.

A big bore kit does reportedly do better than even an OEM cylinder in a big bar, big wood, stumping situation and reportedly in some milling use. A couple of builders say they like the big bore for those uses in pro tree service / milling applications with strong oil mix as the displacement and additional size of the piston give more uniform power and cooling.
Locally the 660BB I built for a tree service that uses it for smaller stumping got a "meh, about the same as the oem 660" reaction.
Dave

also worth noting (as shown by weimedogs excellent vids) that some castings aren't off by merely thousandths of an inch but by more than a 1/4 inch and are freeporting calamities :)

If a builder took the time to correct all the problems and built a strong saw, most customers wouldn't want to pay the same price for that saw as all OEM. So your customer base turns into bargain shoppers, who statistically are a bigger pain in the butt to deal with.
Definitely lose/lose for the builder I would think.
Morning dave
 

Brewz

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Great post Dave, very informative.

That explains a lot!

I guess that's close enough to Myth confirmed!

064 and early 066 have the same case.
A 660 will run just as good as a 064\066

Are you talking with a 54 or 56mm jug?
 

Definitive Dave

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Morning Jason

coffee and diatribe mixed to a custom blend about once a day here on OPE
Wow reading that back I sound angry, not my intent.

End of this month I am sending a pair of 064 saws out to a builder in Ohio one of them with OEM P/C and one with the first AM clone for the 064 I have seen.
I suspect that it is the cylinder that Meteor had planned on offering but pulled from their catalog because the casting quality wasn't up to snuff, but I may be pleasantly surprised.
 

jmssaws

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Morning Jason

coffee and diatribe mixed to a custom blend about once a day here on OPE
Wow reading that back I sound angry, not my intent.

End of this month I am sending a pair of 064 saws out to a builder in Ohio one of them with OEM P/C and one with the first AM clone for the 064 I have seen.
I suspect that it is the cylinder that Meteor had planned on offering but pulled from their catalog because the casting quality wasn't up to snuff, but I may be pleasantly surprised.
A meteor cylinder isn't a ks but the ones I've used " and I've used many" have been great and ran fantastic stock
 

paragonbuilder

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Here is the long and short of the issue, IMHO.

Disclosure:
I sell both OEM and several brands of aftermarket cylinders including Big Bore kits.
I make more profit on an aftermarket kit than on an OEM kit, even though the OEM has a price tag much higher in most cases.
I have worked with / provide cylinders to several dozen different builders and try like hell to pay attention to all of their feedback.

Most aftermarket cylinders are an attempt to "clone" an OEM cylinder.
Cost is also a major concern for the aftermarket makers, if they spend as much as the OEM to make a perfect cylinder they have to charge as much as OEM and there is no benefit.
In making the clone the aftermarket gets as close as they can and then calls it good enough.
As any of the builders here can tell you a change of 1 degree or a thousandth of an inch in certain areas of the cylinder creates changes in performance.
There are also a ton of variations in OEM cylinders so if the one they use as a sample isn't the best and then they do a decent job in cloning they may end up with a cylinder that visually looks fine and has good fitment to the crankcase and crank but produces less power due to inefficiencies and inaccuracies in the copying.
So when this cylinder goes to market the average homeowner dude is reasonably happy that his recently dead saw now makes 89% of the power it formerly made, but that isn't enough for the pros and pro builders/mechanics.
Since "there is no replacement for displacement", the aftermarket companies then overbore the same castings that produce a mediocre standard size cylinder to produce the same cylinder with the same port timing and measurement errors, just a little bigger.
The company has no additional molding or R&D to do and now has two offerings for the marketplace including the "Big Bore" which of course sounds impressive. this helps them offset the considerable cost of making a new casting.

Most builders/porters/modders who build saws for a living or for pay are unwilling to chance working with a subpar cylinder when the cost difference isn't really that great in relation to the overall cost of a pro saw and porting work.
Plating is an issue for builders including overplating, uneven plating, plating flash in ports and intake/exhaust. Overall molding and finishing may also leave a lot more for the builder to do himself and the customer doesn't see or pay for the extra work.
Since quality control and overall uniformity is better on the OEM cylinder and it has years of research and science behind it most guys feel more comfortable starting the journey to a ported saw from a known origin.

An aftermarket big bore cylinder can be made to run like a beast, but builders are less likely to undertake this as it isn't a repeatable process. If Builder Bob ports an MS660 OEM and takes notes his next OEM 660 build goes faster and maybe better. With an aftermarket he is starting from scratch each time and can't just use the same numbers and process every time a saw arrives with a check.

Big Bore cylinders sell well, even when I tell a potential customer they are better off with OEM or a strong AM with rigid QC like Meteor, more than half the time they buy the cheaper big bore kit.

If you go with any aftermarket kit make sure you use Caber or OEM rings in the right size for your piston, cheap rings kill power, PERIOD.

A big bore kit does reportedly do better than even an OEM cylinder in a big bar, big wood, stumping situation and reportedly in some milling use. A couple of builders say they like the big bore for those uses in pro tree service / milling applications with strong oil mix as the displacement and additional size of the piston give more uniform power and cooling.
Locally the 660BB I built for a tree service that uses it for smaller stumping got a "meh, about the same as the oem 660" reaction.
Dave

also worth noting (as shown by weimedogs excellent vids) that some castings aren't off by merely thousandths of an inch but by more than a 1/4 inch and are freeporting calamities :)

If a builder took the time to correct all the problems and built a strong saw, most customers wouldn't want to pay the same price for that saw as all OEM. So your customer base turns into bargain shoppers, who statistically are a bigger pain in the butt to deal with.
Definitely lose/lose for the builder I would think.
Dave this makes a lot of sense! Thanks
 

jmssaws

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Morning Jason

coffee and diatribe mixed to a custom blend about once a day here on OPE
Wow reading that back I sound angry, not my intent.

End of this month I am sending a pair of 064 saws out to a builder in Ohio one of them with OEM P/C and one with the first AM clone for the 064 I have seen.
I suspect that it is the cylinder that Meteor had planned on offering but pulled from their catalog because the casting quality wasn't up to snuff, but I may be pleasantly surprised.
I'm very interested in this 064 cylinder clone. I would like a chance to get one in my hands. What's the availability like?
 

CR888

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Really well said DDave, many builders give a far more simple but firm NO when it comes to the issue, you properly explained 'why' in detail. Even a DDave that sounds angry is ok in my book. If Brews is prepared to take the chance and has the tooling/time to restore/change port map it 'may' be an ok option. I would try to buy OEM when it comes to cast cylinders.... Piston & rings by caber & meteor are OK to be AM.
 

Glock37

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The redlight 066 case is best too use with a 056 mag ll topend only have to slot bolt holes and grind outside jugg to fit case and drill hole for plug

Am i correct ?


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